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Talk:Shadow attack
Shadows with shadow attack It appears that the 1.69 changed which shadows got the shadow attack AI. Prior to 1.69 the shadow fiends of the shadow conjuration spell and negative plane avatar would all have it. Now the only shadows that have this ability are: * Shadow (standard toolkit creature) * Shadow fiend (standard toolkit creature) * Shadowdancer summon: Shadow fiend * Shadowdancer summon: Shadow lord * Shadowdancer summon: Epic shadow lord Of these both the shadow lord (shadowdancer) and the epic shadow lord (shadowdancer) will have a one third chance of using this ability, else they will engage in standard combat. Once a shadow engages in standard combat they ignore the special AI that triggers the shadow attack ability until they are removed from combat long enough to rest. The feat knockdown and other tactics can often cause the targeted shadow to abandon its special AI and engage in standard combat. WhiZard 11:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC) * Are you sure the shadow conjuration shadow fiends had this ability pre-1.69? Their blueprint is not in the patch .bif, suggesting that they have not been changed since at least HotU's release (version 1.59). --The Krit 16:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC) :* Quite sure I have often made great use of shadow attack from shadow conjuration previous to the 1.69. I had taken down many dragons this way. I am pretty sure that I did this as late as the 1.68. WhiZard 20:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC) ::* I found a copy of the 1.68 critical rebuild. I did a test run with shadow conjuration (new module, no override), and the shadow it summoned did not have the special shadow attack, just the normal on-hit strength drain. (I even tried against a standard adult black dragon -- the shadow was barely a speedbump.) Nor did the blueprint have the variables for the special AI. --The Krit 23:01, 10 August 2009 (UTC) :::* I do not know how to explain the incongruity. Perhaps it was a fluke in my game, or perhaps something wierd happened. In a months time my NWN computer will have internet access so I'll be able to do back tests better. Thank you for your effort. Just to verify, which I'm sure is true, was the shadow you summoned a shadow fiend? (The regular shadows summoned never get shadow attack).WhiZard 11:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC) ::::* Was your summon a shadow fiend. If it was a standard shadow or even a shadow lord your test might be meaningless. WhiZard 20:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC) ::::* Not sure at the moment. I'll have to run the test again to double-check. --The Krit 00:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC) ::::* I re-checked, and you're right -- I had a regular shadow instead of a shadow fiend. When I re-checked with a shadow fiend, there still was no special attack, though, under both 1.68 and 1.69. (There was no strength draining going on at all, in fact, since the shadow fiend does not have that on its claws.) --The Krit 18:46, September 2, 2009 (UTC) :::::* Thank you. I also checked 1.68 (via revert patch) and 1.63 (base install for my platinum version) and also did not find the shadow fiend making the strength drain. I guess I somehow had previously benefited from some sort of fluke, and my guess is that it was either through a flawed update file or that somehow using builds that could summon both the shadow dancer fiends and the shadow conjuration fiends, somehow caused sufficient confusion to attach the shadow attack (but not incorporeal) to shadow conjuration fiends, allowing many summons with shadow attack per day. I also did not see really any trace of alteration in the scripts (with the exception of fixing the shadowcombatrunning integer) and so would say that this is entirely a fluke. Again thank you for your time and I appreciate your help. WhiZard 13:12, September 5, 2009 (UTC) :* The blueprints seem odder than I thought. Even the NWN OC and SotU blueprints for shadow fiend and shadow have the X2_SPECIAL_COMBAT_AI_SCRIPT variable, which didn't exist until HotU. Further there seems no evidence of the older version of shadow attack that was used before the HotU release. Right now it is unfeasible for me to download the 1.68 revert patch, but if you know of anyone with the 1.68 who is willing to examine these blueprints with NWN explorer, light might be shed on what happened. WhiZard 11:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC) ::* It's not so odd for BioWare to update older blueprints to make use of newer features. That's one of the things patches do. As for the older version of the shadow attack, what was it? I'm looking at the creature blueprint from the original (and unpatched) game, but see no evidence of a special attack for them, just their standard on-hit strength drain. --The Krit 18:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC) :::* The older shadow fiends did have shadow attack, I've seen it both in the summons and in the normal creatures both in standard HotU and before. Try summoning one (pre 1.69) and see how it behaves. I have had too many examples of the shadow attack working on shadow fiends before 1.69 to dismiss the possibility of an older version of it. WhiZard 11:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC) ::::* You mean summon one pre-HotU (not merely pre-1.69), don't you? (Determining what happens post-HotU would not help reveal what this older version of shadow attack was. My question here -- as opposed to above -- is what the attack was, not who had it.) Testing that would take some effort since I would need to find my CDs to play that old a version. --The Krit 23:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC) :::::* The thing is even well after HotU I could still summon shadow fiends through shadow conjuration and their form of attack was a once per round touch attack that dealt from 1 to 6 strength damage with the possibility of doing magical damage equal to the target's hit points if the strength of the target was as low as six yet more frequently if it was reduced to three. I would say that this does at least parallel shadow attack and if the x2 ai was not blueprinted for these summons they may still have had this ability by using an older system- instead of the x2 ai variable- which (the older system) might have been overridden or removed in the 1.69. Right now it would seem more important to verify the summon shadow fiends actions in pre 1.69 gameplay as that would allow at least some ground to agree on. WhiZard 11:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC) ::::::* I think it would be better to keep the questions (pre-HotU and pre-1.69) separate. That should make things easier to follow. In that spirit, I responded above (rather than down here) as to the shadows having this ability under 1.68. --The Krit 01:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC) Spell vs. Spell-like This ability is not on any spell lists, nor is it available from a scroll. It is not a spell. (It does have an entry in spells.2da, but then again, so do all the spell-like abilities.) --The Krit 23:15, September 19, 2009 (UTC) * The "user type" column in spells.2da has a value of 1 for shadow attack. The meaning of these numbers is 1= spell, 2= spell-like ability, 3= feat, 4= special. As a spell it can be given to a polymorph form when changing polymorph.2da. Furthermore improved combat casting removes the AoO this spell causes. Why do make usable by a player character a requirement of determining spell from spell-like? And which spell lists are you looking at? WhiZard 00:37, September 20, 2009 (UTC) :* The "UserType" column is used by the Toolset to organize the selection of special abilities for a creature; is it used anywhere else? I find it rather unsurprising that a little-used ability got misclassified there and no one noticed. Any valid entry from spells.2da can be given to a polymorph form via polymorph.2da, not just spells. (For example, the wyrmling shapes are given their breath weapon in this way.) The shadows with this ability use it via a spell-casting action (ActionCastSpellAtObject(), specifically), so of course the AoO associated with the casting is negated by improved combat casting — that's what that feat does, negate the AoO associated with a spell-casting action. The requirement I brought up is not "usable by a player character", but being on a spell list. Because of how the game handles abilities, the only distinguishing features of spells are that they are on a spell list and they have been given the spellhook code. The only exceptions are the two spells that were dropped from spell lists (but not from the game) before their release, which is why I mentioned scrolls. The spell lists I am looking at are bard spells, cleric spells, druid spells, paladin spells, ranger spells, and sorcerer/wizard spells. --The Krit 10:46, September 22, 2009 (UTC) ::* Very well spell is defined by spell-hook, all other casting is spell-like. Thus various shifter forms will have can have either spells or spell-like abilities without any in-game distinction. (Drider darkness is spell-like, icestorm is spell, etc. and they all come from a the spell radial) WhiZard 11:10, September 22, 2009 (UTC) ::* Minor point, but user type 1 actually is what simulates the AoO during spellcasting. ActionCastSpellAtObject() and standard casting from a spell book will not provoke an AoO if the user type of the spell has been changed to 2,3, or 4. WhiZard 14:21, October 13, 2009 (UTC) :::* So that column is used for something outside the Toolset. Still, I'm pretty sure the classification of this as "1" is a bug, not something that warrants more than a note in the notes section. Is the silence part also influenced by the UserType column? --The Krit 04:44, October 15, 2009 (UTC) ::::* Silence does not regard user type. Casting spells with user type 2 still is subject to silence if the spell requires a verbal component. Therefore as to the bug note, two values of the 2da (user type and components) are causing it to act as a spell instead of a special attack. It, however, defies the logic of a spell by having no innate level and 0 casting time. Also the AoO (from user type 1) is pertinent to any use of shadow attack (excluding cast from a non-scroll item) not specifically the AI.WhiZard 08:24, October 15, 2009 (UTC) :::::* This also defies the logic of a spell in that it involves no magic beyond its user's existence. Don't lose sight of what this ability represents -- a shadow swiping an insubstantial appendage through its target, letting its essence draw out the target's strength. A simple cause-and-effect resulting from the contact of the shadow's essence with living flesh. --The Krit 17:53, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::::*It is not a one of a kind instance either. The shifter's spectre attack also has user type 1, verbal and somatic required, casting time of 0, and no innate level. Or do you also suggest this is a bug? WhiZard 20:13, October 22, 2009 (UTC) :::::::* Yes, I also call that a bug. (It's not uncommon for BioWare to repeatedly make the same mistake. Just look at all the scripts the had -- and some still have -- the "nature's balance" bug in which cumulative adjustments to a value -- such as duration -- are made every iteration through a loop. The spells fixed in 1.69 are nature's balance and the fear gaze and howl. I've got a list somewhere of others that are still bugged.) --The Krit 21:33, October 22, 2009 (UTC) :::* Does being user type 1 cause this ability to generate attacks of opportunity if it is given to a creature via the "Special Abilities" tab of its properties (instead of being cheat-cast by the special AI script)? --The Krit 03:11, October 24, 2009 (UTC) ::::* I hadn't looked into depth into these toolkit entries. Besides the two listings of shadow attack in the special abilities tab, there also appear a lot of other spells with user type 1. Neither the shadow attacks listed nor the other spells cause an AoO from the special abilities tab. User type 1 will, however provoke an AoO, if used from a feat, from the spell tab (or spell book for a PC) or from assigned by polymorph (still within the spell radial for a PC), so the ActionCastSpellAtObject() is not necessary for an NPC to provoke an AoO from the spell. Also since shadow attack is linked to the description of an inflict spell, it can be spontaneously cast by a PC cleric if it is given a cleric spell level in spells.2da. WhiZard 17:18, October 24, 2009 (UTC) Shadowdancer summons change Regarding the recent edit: :The only standard summoned creatures that use this attack are summoned by a shadowdancer via summon shadow. Of these summoned shadows, the shadow lord (and epic shadow lord) has only a 1/3 chance each combat round of using this attack, while the other shadowdancer summons will use this attack every combat round (unless the AI is interrupted, such as by making an attack of opportunity or by being knocked prone). *1) Once the AI is abandoned during a combat round it is never regained till after the action queue is empty (the normal waiting time till rest). The action queue overrides the special AI thus there is a 2/3 chance each round of the shadow lord/epic shadow lord abandoning the AI for the rest of the combat (made before the attack would be applied) and once the shadow fiend loses shadow attack it does not revert back to it the next round. *2) The shadowdancer standard summoned shadow (not fiend or lord) does not have shadow attack due to a bug in the template (see shadow). *3) The shadowdancer summoned shadow fiend is thus the only one that reliably uses shadow attack each round. *4) Since the shadowdancer summoned fiend and the lord are immune to knockdown, the comment for prone only applies to the standard toolkit creatures for removing the AI. *5) Attacks of opportunity are not made by the shadow fiend while in the special AI, as it is using up each entire round casting an instantaneous spell. *6) What were you trying to fix? WhiZard 15:24, September 29, 2009 (UTC) * I'll go in order: :# The AI script is called OnCombatRoundEnd, but you say the action queue has an effect? Hmm... Oh, the AI script neglects to clear all actions. That could make the special AI ineffective as long as there is an attack action going on. :# I did not notice that. Good catch. :# Given 1 and 2, right. :# That was a copy from memory of the note you added to shadow fiend. :# That was a garbled copy from an inaccurate memory of the note you added to shadow fiend. ;) Unfortunately, I did not remember where that note was, so I did not double-check it. :# That edit was the first step in trying to fix the location of that note. Since it deals with creature AI -- not shadow attack itself -- it should be under each creature's article. I settled for keeping the change on my radar because I did not have the time to create all the relevant creature articles. (I had made a mental note earlier that some of the shadow creature articles were missing, then I missed seeing you create them. So I did not realize moving the notes would be so simple.) : :--The Krit 12:27, September 30, 2009 (UTC) ::* The reason for the shadow fiend article having the knockdown note disrupting the AI is because the standard toolkit instance is not immune to knockdown. The corresponding summoned article does not have that note because the only summoned shadow fiends with that ability are immune to knockdown. The history of the summoned page does have me adding this note before I realized that what I experienced pre-1.69 was a complete glitch from shadow conjuration summons getting the AI (they are not immune to knockdown), and I removed it immediately when realizing that 1.69 behaved differently (before making the first comment on this (shadow attack) talk page). WhiZard 13:26, September 30, 2009 (UTC) :::* Yeah, I got that the first time. I said I was working from memory, not the actual articles. Anything else to bring up before the note gets moved? (This edit is serving a useful purpose in getting the info straight in my head.) --The Krit 18:45, October 1, 2009 (UTC) ::::* A minor point: the special AI can be lost from summons by using radial commands (e.g. "follow me") on them while in combat. WhiZard 20:58, October 1, 2009 (UTC)